Re: [oc] Inquiry

[Rudolf Usselmann <rudi@asics.ws>]

On Sun, 2003-05-04 at 23:04, John Dalton wrote:
> > I can't say that I agree about the quality of the cores on opencores.
> 
> I'm pleased to hear someone say this.

Me too ! :*)

Many thanks Stuart ! Good feedback !

> > *  First off, when you do a chip, any licence requiring you to expose
> > the source code is a non-starter.  If you are a chip vendor, the code
> > is your company's commercial value, and can be worth tens or millions
> > of dollars.  Giving it away is foolish.
> 
> That is a decision any business user will have to make: Is the cost of the
> license conditions worth it?
> 
> 
> > *  Secondly, supposing you wanted to release your FPGA's source code.
> > How would you do it?
> 
> I would suggest putting the code on a web site, and providing the
> user with a URL.  Any of your other suggestions would also be valid.
> 
> 
> > And what would your customer do with it?
> 
> Just one example, if the device is a computer peripheral, the customer
> might use the source code as an information source to write a device
> driver for the peripheral.

Yes, and he will call you every fife minutes asking what
the case statement on line 23876 in foo_bar.v means. Now
multiply this by, lest see how many customers does CISCO
or Sun or Sony, etc. have ? 

> > I suspect that he would think you were a lunatic if you gave him several
> > directories of raw Verilog on a floppy.
> 
> Some might think this.  Others would be thankful that they can verify
> that the design is bug free, easily get interfacing information,
> do complete system/board level simulations and so on.

Actually John, I disagree with you !

I suspect that if a company would do that, depending on
how wide they chip /device is distributed, they would end
up with thousands if not millions emails of some guy who
things he found an important bug !

I get every day dozens of emails asking me how some of my
cores work and telling me of supposed bugs ... I spend many
hours every day explaining various functions of various
cores I have deposited at OC, and how they supposed to work.

Hey John, can I forward all the support/bug/question emails
to you ? ;*)

> > *  Since there are several different licences in use, you have to
> > become a legal expert in the detailed restrictions of each type of
> > licence.
> 
> That is why designers should try to stick to either a BSD license
> or a GPL license and why each designer should not write their
> own license.
> 
> 
> > *  Finally, even if you did want to be a good doobie and release the
> > GPLedsource, how would you -- as a working engineer -- ever explain
> > that to your boss?  Telling anybody in the management line that you
> > want to release the source code for your chip would be professional
> > suicide.  
> 
> Maybe.  At least one of my clients seems amiable to releasing
> code under the GPL.  You never know until you ask.  Also there
> are engineers out there who have managed to arrange things so they
> own at least some of the code they produce.  All these small
> contributions add up to make a larger body of useful code, which
> will hopefully expand over time.
> 
> Maybe it is a job for Opencores, to bit by bit change this culture
> of secrecy?  It's taken almost 20 years for the GPL to be come 'mainstream'
> in the software industry.
> 
> 
> > They may indeed be using the cores in their work, for all I
> > know.  But if they do, they will never admit it because it opens up
> > Pandora's box of licencing issues.
> 
> If they do this they are absolutely NUTS.  Because a core is GPLd, it does
> not mean the author relinquishes ownership.  If a designer gets caught
> breaking license conditions, they expose themselves/employer to a damages
> claim, or risk being forced to release their own source code to comply
> with license conditions.  Yes, this is a 'worst case' scenario (from the
> violator's point of view), but it is theoretically possible.  Designers
> are better not to use a core if they are not prepared to follow the licensing
> conditions.

This is highly unlikely. Even though no external party reviews
a big companies designs, they usually have pretty tight internal
measures in place to make sure such things don't happen and all
code is legal and correct. Sometimes they have to fight in court
for patents, that when these type of things could easily get
exposed.

> 
> > However, the GPL makes it difficult to build a business on open source
> > code.
> 
> Maybe the author of the code isn't interested in building a business?
> There are other reasons for doing things in life.
> 
> 
> I'm not claiming to disprove anything you have said.  For someone who
> wants to use opencores in their business, I think much of what you
> said is true.
> 
> I guess the main point I am trying to get across is that I believe that
> Opencores primary purpose should not be to provide zero-cost cores
> for businesses, otherwise it just becomes 'another card in the pack'.
> Plenty of places already exist from which business users can get cores.
> I would advocate that Opencores should exist to provide cores to
> members of the Opencores community.  If some of these community
> members happen to be businesses, great, but the business point of view
> should not dominate or set the direction of Opencores.  Of course
> this is MY opinion, so you are free to argue against it.

Thats a very difficult thing John. You think this will work
like it does with SW. I don't believe so. I think you must
(at least at the beginning) allow companies to use your cores
without expecting anything in return. (I guess that means
BSD license ?)
Here is the problem: It is very expensive to make custom
chips. Even FPGAs are not that cheap. My feeling is that
OC need to FIRST gain respect with the community as a valid
alternative to commercial IPs. This is the biggest hurdle
for OC. Once this step has been accomplished, you can start
being demanding and change to GPL style licensing. But
until than, you'll be just another web page ...

Best Regards,

rudi               
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